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Pat Mcgroin

Coast Guard dispatching ships and personnel to Costa Rica to threaten

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Some facts to support my point that the US financial investment and importance in CR is far too great for the US AND CR to ignore/abandon/leave unprotected, etc., during a possible military conflict between CR and ANY other country in the world.

 

Would you knock it off about "a possible military conflict between CR and ANY other country"? I'm tired of this Risk Game scenario. Please, leave this at home. This is NOT how the world or CR works. It's a militaristic imposition.

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...Considering how emotionally anti-US you appear to be in your postings throughout this forum, I'm not at all surprised you'd say that.

 

As others have suggested previously, discussing something based on emotions instead of facts and data is usually pointless unless all of the people in the discussion already share the same emotions, and at that point the facts are of little importance.

 

And would you knock it off about emotions? Yours is a naive view in my opinion that emotion and reason conflict, and from what I see you find so-called facts to bolster your emotions. Give it a rest. Yes, people feel about things, and ideally that prompts them to seek out facts, but there isn't the conflict you imply, and unless you are Dr. Spock I don't believe you are any different.

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Well you sure are opinionated, and I did stat facts. But It seems that I did not read any facts in all of your posts. Besides If you are such a great American why don t you move back and then you would not have to worry about what the US Military may do here. And yes you could say I am an expert on Military after 26 years served.

Ron USCG Ret

 

Nice "fact" to call me a draft dodger. And I'm supposed to be impressed that you spent 26 years sucking on the military teat and now collect a pension for same? Last I looked scant few Americans with real jobs get such early retirements. No wonder you believe what you do, otherwise you couldn't sleep at night.

 

If you must know, I was among those who vowed to leave the US if my countrymen were bloodthirsty enough to reelect W, and I did. Rush Limbaugh and others taunted that it was an idle threat, and we pansies wouldn't really leave the land of opportunity. Well I did, and I chose a pacifist country. The last thing I want is to have to live with career military retirees like you. Why don't you go back to the US if you think the militaristic state is so great? I'm trying to get away from guys like you, and really don't understand how you can retire to in good conscience to a pacifist country after a career in the opposite. You think the US military is great, but guess what, don't even want to live there yourself. For heaven's sake, go back to your VFW and leave those of us who don't agree with your alone. You've made your bed, lie in it.

 

BTW, normally "Military" wouldn't be capitalized, though I gather it is in your mind.

 

Ken, NOT Ret

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So, the end result is allowing more drugs throughout the society... My short answer is that I am against regulating instead of outlawing, primarily because more drugs will result in more negative impacts for innocent victims of those who "overindulge", beyond harmless recreational use.

 

The arguments always end up being mostly emotional rather than practical and rational... Alcohol abuse causes many problems. Which is worse and why...? Smoking pot or drinking alcohol? For the most part the effects are largely the same, but the smokers don't have the same influence over the relevant laws that the drinkers do, and the drinkers got their approvals first.

 

I live in the (south) Bay Area of NorCal where this debate is ongoing and the pot smokers are getting more and more freedom. My emotional and somewhat rational point of view is that loosening regulations on pot creates more problems for the society, but the "fact" is that alcohol abuse is not a better thing than pot abuse, so why ban one and not the other?

 

Can we talk about the much-needed solutions for La Sele instead? Coach's fault or players fault? :)

 

Don't dodge it, tens of thousands of lives are at stake.

 

Sure, it's pretty much a slam dunk that pot should be legal, and no the effects of it and alcohol are NOT similar. Pot is way better from the standpoint of social harm. The US (and other societies) tolerates alcohol, and probably should, and it should accordingly tolerate pot.

 

It gets tougher with some of the other drugs. To my mind cocaine is not a good thing. Its mere use (even if legal) has more casualties. So it's tough I think to be purely libertarian on this. However, when you consider how much harm making cocaine illegal inflicts upon Latin America, you have to I believe reject that policy. Thus I think we should ideally hammer out some middle ground of policy--probably legalizing it in the US AND getting on top of educational and treatment programs, or something along these lines. I have no one policy recommendation, just say that we should put our heads together and find something that doesn't kill so many people or waste so much money. And it is a question of where money is spent. Plan Colombia has cost the US billions. It's not free. Yet while Uribe appears to have dented the supply in Colombia, in part with US aid, we see that some of the problem has shifted to Central America and Mexico, while Uribe's initiatives have provoked Venezuela. I don't think that in the big picture Plan Colombia has worked. And since it's not as if the US is doing nothing or spending no money, it seems to me that the US should rethink policy and redirect money to what might work. And yes, my thinking is that attention should be directed to demand, since attention to supply hasn't worked.

 

But really, real people are being killed, innocent people, so this isn't a game. It's also quite possible that those of us in CR are paying for this through a lower exchange rate, resulting from more drug money being run through CR, in addition to whatever US taxes we pay. It's therefore important, not simply an academic exercise. An innocent student was killed in my neighborhood not long ago, caught in a crossfire between rival drug gangs, and if that was my kid I would be more than pissed. Come on, Americans can do better than this, we really can, and we have a moral obligation to try. We're still the major market (demand . . .) and are already spending billions. We're involved and can do better.

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Say, isn't Nicaragua having elections? Then this is nothing new, just the same old US gunboat diplomacy: Vote the way we want you to, or we'll be forced to bring Democracy to your country and shove it down your throat at gunpoint.

Yep, nothing new, nothing changes. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss....

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Say, isn't Nicaragua having elections? Then this is nothing new, just the same old US gunboat diplomacy: Vote the way we want you to, or we'll be forced to bring Democracy to your country and shove it down your throat at gunpoint.

Yep, nothing new, nothing changes. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss....

 

I hate to do shameless self promotion, but in the outside chance anyone is interested here is the Amazon link to my recent book about Nicaragua:

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1556528086/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0ZFKTSD4XT985ABKD520&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

 

Regarding Nicaragua's elections, no, not till next year, and believe you me it is a can of worms. Gunboat (or at least dollar) diplomacy is though nothing new in Nicaragua (or CR for that matter). The US has consistently supported the Sandinista opposition financially, i.e., in EVERY election, and I can't dismiss the possibility that Bush the First invaded Panama in part to dictate the outcome of Nicaragua's elections a few months later. It was, it appears, a matter of killing two birds with one stone. As for the boss, the Nicaraguan contras actually called the US Ambassador (to Honduras, where the war was orchestrated) "the boss" during the 1980s. I'm not kidding, they really did.

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No worries, someday it will come to an end and China will be the big guy on the block bringing gunboat communism to the world. Then, we'll all sit around reminiscing about the good old days when the 'big bad US' was in charge...

 

You know, the 'big bad US' who

...provides more aid to the world than anyone else.

...provides more disaster relief to the world than anyone else.

...stands up and fights more than anyone else.

 

The same country everyone hates but turns to in time of need.

 

Blah blah blah... :o

 

I love these kinds of posts, because they are so easily rebutted! I assume that the poster is a Proud American and wants to see his country as better than it is, but except for the charge that the US "stands up and fights more than anyone else" (hard to discount, since the damn US military is just about everywhere, even in CR) the points are just factually incorrect. You can Google it for yourself, but here's a link I found right away about how the US ranks on foreign aid:

 

http://www.cgdev.org/section/initiatives/_active/cdi/_country/united_states

 

Not good? You got it! And we have to wonder whether "aid" delivered by battleships is included in this low figure. I assume it is.

 

I happen to agree that China's presence globally is important, and not usually for the long-term good, but now that I think of it I haven't heard of China sending 46 battleships to CR, or actually even one. At the same time, does China have 20,000 soldiers in Japan, military bases in Germany, arms in Colombia? I'm thinking not. China is a shrewd player, and not to my mind always for the good, but it has the knack of playing diplomatically, which is frankly a strategy the US might want to copy. It's much smarter (the people like you more) if you send in guys in business suits with checkbooks than when you send in soldiers in uniforms with guns. The US may win in fire power in the short run, but is losing in the long run.

 

Blah, blah, blah

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So your point is that we should reject anything tangentially associated with the U.S. military because … well, because it’s the U.S. military. If you chose to stand on principal that’s fine as long as you are willing to accept for yourself and others (Costa Ricans in this case) the consequences of your decision.

 

 

And what if you are wrong? then what? What if Costa Rica were to go the way of the northern states in Central America in regards to the influence and violence of the Mexican drug cartels?

 

 

I hear your argument all the time.

 

 

Do you think that Costa Rica would enjoy the fruits of no military if not for the military of the United States? The fact that Costa Rica has voted to partnership with the U.S. and its military and law enforcement efforts on many occasions is evidence that the country sees the wisdom and advantage in dealing with what some refer to as the “Evil Yankee Empire”.

 

 

Do you then reject all militaries? Do you then reject all assistance and law enforcement partnership efforts, from any country with a military? Or are you selectively accepting of cold cash from a country that spends some of its revenues on maintaining and training a standing military. Are you willing to trade with the Evil Empire?

 

 

Here’s an article from the 26th of July regarding the growing narcotic trafficking problem in Central America.

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/26/AR2010072605661_pf.html

 

 

Mexican drug cartels bring violence with them in move to Central America

 

By Nick Miroff and William Booth

Washington Post staff writers

Tuesday, July 27, 2010; A01

 

“… The Mexican cartels "are spreading their horizons to states where they feel, quite frankly, more comfortable. These governments in Central America face a very real challenge in confronting these organizations," said David Gaddis, chief of operations for the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. …”

 

What if? Well, what if the Martians invaded and only Hershey bars would stop them? Man, I'd be in favor of Hershey bars! Really, I'm tired of these fictitious scenarios used to defend US military aggression. Right, IF Saddam had had weapons of mass destruction AND was intent upon deploying them against us, there would have been a reason to invade. But guess what? He didn't and he wasn't. So much for the justification for invasion (except for the 300,000 - 600,000 Iraqis the US slaughtered). IF CR actually needed US military support, THEN you would have a point. But it doesn't and you don't.

 

The drug cartels are already throughout Central America, Guatemala in particular. (And hey, they have a military, what gives? I thought a military would prevent this!) I'm just lost how this can be construed as an argument for a US military presence in CR. Hershey bars I could understand, but the US military? Naw, not good, more problems than it is worth.

 

And that CR accepts cash from countries with militaries, which I think most do (even Switzerland!), is I suppose for this reason beside the point. Like duh, yeah, the countries from which it accepts money have militaries. I bet the people in those countries also drink milk. Does this mean that milk drinking protects CR? Come on, spell out the connection between a foreign military and CR or shut up.

 

As for me, yeah, I would live with the consequences. Not that anyone cares, but after much reflection I have decided that I am not a pacifist. I think some countries, probably most, ought to have a military and occasionally deploy it. (However, I also believe that in a republic the military should be largely comprised of citizens through universal conscription. Basically, if everybody had to fight, everybody would think long and hard before entering a war, and we could also shut up the career blowhards who believe that they know better than the rest of us.) That said, there is ample evidence in the world today that pacifism works. Gandhi pulled it off in India, Mandela in South Africa, MLK in the US, and CR hasn't done a bad job of it either. As a pure matter of strategy, sure, I'd go without a military backup if I were CR. It's smarter, more effective, and more humane.

 

But the opposition keeps asking "What if?" like Alexander the Great is fixing to descend and kill all he men while raping all the women. Well, yeah, it could happen, but it doesn't seem likely to me. Alex and his ilk aren't around anymore. I think they went to Mars to regroup. Worse, I suspect that when they return it will be as bankers, not soldiers, because that's where the real power is and they're not stupid.

 

As the saying goes, the US military is always prepared to fight the last war but never prepared for the current one. I dunno, but it seems to me that lots of Americans are still sitting around hoping to liberate France and not willing to admit that it was 65 years ago and ain't nobody been liberated by the US military since. It would seem a B movie fiction that the US is poised to protect and defend say CR. Yeah right. I say thanks but no thanks, go back to Tokyo or Frankfurt or wherever the hell you guys feel you're welcome, because it ain't here.

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Nice "fact" to call me a draft dodger. And I'm supposed to be impressed that you spent 26 years sucking on the military teat and now collect a pension for same? Last I looked scant few Americans with real jobs get such early retirements. No wonder you believe what you do, otherwise you couldn't sleep at night.

 

If you must know, I was among those who vowed to leave the US if my countrymen were bloodthirsty enough to reelect W, and I did. Rush Limbaugh and others taunted that it was an idle threat, and we pansies wouldn't really leave the land of opportunity. Well I did, and I chose a pacifist country. The last thing I want is to have to live with career military retirees like you. Why don't you go back to the US if you think the militaristic state is so great? I'm trying to get away from guys like you, and really don't understand how you can retire to in good conscience to a pacifist country after a career in the opposite. You think the US military is great, but guess what, don't even want to live there yourself. For heaven's sake, go back to your VFW and leave those of us who don't agree with your alone. You've made your bed, lie in it.

 

BTW, normally "Military" wouldn't be capitalized, though I gather it is in your mind.

 

Ken, NOT Ret

Well the mighty KENN has spoken everyone should bow to you now. If you as smart as you want eveyone to know, then you would know that the Coast Guard USA has not been involved in very many wars. Thier main job if you spent the time to research is the save lives of boaters and starting in the 70s enforce drug smuggling laws. And if you think that living anywhere in the world there is a peaceful country go there and let the rest of us live here in our own world. Maybe you should move to another country untry you find your peaceful country. Ron USCG Ret

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Why don't you guys arrange a meeting with boxing gloves? I really can't see that these personal remarks do anything to enlighten any of us about the presence of the US military in Costa Rican waters.

 

Do either of you have any real information about this?

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Why don't you guys arrange a meeting with boxing gloves? I really can't see that these personal remarks do anything to enlighten any of us about the presence of the US military in Costa Rican waters.

 

Do either of you have any real information about this?

REMINDER to whom it is appropriate:

 

Sniping and/or namecalling are an invitation to moderation or removal from the Forums. (Please revisit the Forums Rules & Guidelines...)

 

It seems important to some members that they have an audience, but that is not an acceptable reason to hash such things out on the Forums. So, if members truly feel the need to do so -with namecalling, etc.- then take the discussion off-list. Otherwise, play nice and be respectful of one another. I don't intend to play 'three strikes, you're out' with this scenario.

 

Moderator

==

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I love these kinds of posts, because they are so easily rebutted! I assume that the poster is a Proud American and wants to see his country as better than it is, but except for the charge that the US "stands up and fights more than anyone else" (hard to discount, since the damn US military is just about everywhere, even in CR) the points are just factually incorrect. You can Google it for yourself, but here's a link I found right away about how the US ranks on foreign aid:

 

http://www.cgdev.org/section/initiatives/_active/cdi/_country/united_states

 

 

 

 

 

Kenn,

 

Did you actually read and understand the website you posted a link to or did you just see rankings that supported your assumptions or what you wanted to find and copy/paste the link?

 

Go back and read it again, see how the values are calculated, look up the numbers that go into their "weighing process" and come back and tell me the US isn't #1 in the things I mentioned.

 

Just to be clear in case there are any misunderstandings. When I say #1, am am referring to real value. Actual $$$. Actual goods. et.al.

I am not talking about a weighing and ranking process based upon values given to perceived good and bad attributes.

 

Nice try though. :D

 

T

Edited by timothy

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AFTER READING THE ABOVE INFO AND BEING A RETIRED MILITARY ABOUT TO RETIRE HERE IN COSTA RICA,,,,ALL I CAN SAY IS,,LIFE IS GREAT! SEE YOU ALL SOON,,,,,,,,,,,,,,CAPTBILL

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